Position: UNDERGROUND STEROIDS

[w_llewellyn]

I just want to make a very clear statement as to my position on the use of Underground Steroids. This forum is public and uncensored barring our rules for dealing drugs and improper behavior. There is often a lot of discussion about this or that underground lab. How excellent the products are, and how they are perfectly pure etc. etc. I want to make sure everyone reading understands what underground steroids really are.

Underground labs are illegal unlicensed operations. It is not possible for these labs to directly purchase bulk pharmaceutical quality steroids to package for the public. Very few, if any, have the resources to obtain true USP (99+% tested pure) materials. Fewer still would spend the money on these materials even if they could obtain them, as they are very expensive.

Instead, underground labs obtain their drugs (99%) from unlicensed Chinese brokers. The thing you need to understand about China is that it has a strong regulated drug market. The U.S. buys a lot of real drugs from China. HOWEVER - The steroids we are talking about are very very rarely produced at pharmaceutical facilities.

The VAST MAJORITY of bulk steroids coming from China are produced in chemical companies. Imagine if you will a company that makes pesticides, synthetic dyes, or other manufacturing-level chemicals, and one day said, "You know what, we can make steroids in here if we want". These chemical companies are not licensed to produce drugs, and do not have to comply with even the minimal of GMP guidelines. They are not inspected. Rarely do they have the capacity to produce very pure products. Still, they very often do produce drugs. In fact, it is estimated that HALF of all drugs sold in China come from this illegal chemical market. This number is significantly higher with anabolic steroids.

It doesn't matter how much you filter a solution. Many things can pass through a .22-micro screen. If you are making drugs with impure steroid APIs, you will produce underground steroids that are impure.

While I concede that there are many underground products of acceptable (safe) purity, the market at its core is completely unregulated, and feeds off a completely unregulated supply chain of rouge chemical companies.

So, in short, it is my opinion now, as it as been for a very long time, that consumers:

SHOULD NOT KNOWINGLY USE UNDERGROUND ANABOLIC STEROIDS

[omni]

The factories there that are suppying "US real drugs" are also supplying ug labs or anyone in a 3rd country that wants to buy raw materials, the government there does not really forbid it so they are free to sell these materials and make money, the materials used by ug labs are from a pharmacuitical factory, not a factory making poison-then they "SAY-You know what, we can make steroids in here if we want" then they make the steroid raw materials in the same drum that the poison was just in-thats basically what your saying right? - well it's scaremongering bullshit..

it's the lab or final product manufacturers job to remove any impurities that may be in the raw materials..

and if your going to make a post like that-why don't you tell us which company steroids are OK.. the only REAL company's making steroids are British Dispensary, organon, and schering and maybe norma hellas-those are the only real public companies with a real address that anyone could easily drive to park in the lot and go in and see a receptionest with many other people working there-in abig place..all the rest are ug labs.. and we have seen these ug labs repeatedly try to claim that they are legitimate by putting forward some bullshit document claiming that it is a real compnay registered in some country like moldova, like the one that used to advertsie on this site and it got an endorsement that it was a real company with such high standards even though the only place you could get this product was from some illecit website--yea whatever

[w_llewellyn]

Originally Posted by omni

The factories there that are suppying "US real drugs" are also supplying ug labs or anyone in a 3rd country that wants to buy raw materials, the government there does not really forbid it so they are free to sell these materials and make money, the materials used by ug labs are from a pharmacuitical factory, not a factory making poison-then they "SAY-You know what, we can make steroids in here if we want" then they make the steroid raw materials in the same drum that the poison was just in-thats basically what your saying right? - well it's scaremongering bullshit..

it's the lab or final product manufacturers job to remove any impurities that may be in the raw materials..

and if your going to make a post like that-why don't you tell us which company steroids are OK.. the only REAL company's making steroids are British Dispensary, organon, and schering and maybe norma hellas-those are the only real public companies with a real address that anyone could easily drive to park in the lot and go in and see a receptionest with many other people working there-in abig place..all the rest are ug labs.. and we have seen these ug labs repeatedly try to claim that they are legitimate by putting forward some bullshit document claiming that it is a real compnay registered in some country like moldova, like the one that used to advertsie on this site and it got an endorsement that it was a real company with such high standards even though the only place you could get this product was from some illecit website--yea whatever

I am not suggesting steroids are made in the same container as poison. I am saying, and this is fact, that most of the steroids traced back to China (as we noted with Raw Deal) are traced back to unlicensed chemical companies, not pharmaceutical producers.

The fact that this is going on is very difficult to dispute. More than one "expose" has traced back drugs to chemical companies. This is going on almost exclusively in the steroid market. Are some licensed producers in some nations diverting pharmaceutical grade material? Yes, but this is a SMALL MINORITY of the bulk steroids diverted.

[w_llewellyn]

Also, you suggest it is the job of the lab to filter out impurities. You need to understand the limitations of .22-micron filtration. This is small enough to remove gross particulate matter and bacteria. It is not small enough to remove:

Heavy Metals
Endotoxins/pyrogens
Virus
Tobacco Smoke
Drugs
Proteins
Pharmaceutical intermediaries
and many other potential contaminant

Underground manufacturing truly is a scenario where "garbage in = garbage out". You can only filter some things. After that, its about material purity. A small number of labs do obtain pure pharmaceutical grade raw materials. Everyone else is dealing in stuff from chemical companies, and these facilities are not supposed to be producing drugs. Some of these chemical producers do produce pure steroids anyway I'm sure. But many do not, and you are absolutely taking chances with an unregulated and not inspected supply.

If you take your time you can find real pharmaceutical steroids. I am sorry if this position is unpopular, but I strongly feel it the most prudent.

[L.W.]

" underground labs obtain their drugs (99%) from unlicensed Chinese brokers. The thing you need to understand about China is that it has a strong regulated drug market. The U.S. buys a lot of real drugs from China. HOWEVER - The steroids we are talking about are very very rarely produced at pharmaceutical facilities."

Amen William.

I do actually like some UG labs.
But even the best of them are at the mercy of the purity of the powder they get. I've known a couple of guys who ran labs at one time or another and even the best of them got bad batches or mislabled batches now and then. A few guys I consider friends and had no intention of 'ripping me off' yet still sold me bunk gear. As you say garbage in garbage out!

Anything coming out of China is suspect. That is a fact. Look at toys, food, drywall, DVD's, CD's, etc,etc ,etc...

If you can avoid the UG then please do for your own health.

[omni]

Well then why have you (WL) repeatedledly endorsed ug labs over the years, like "British Dragon"

and answer the question: Which steroids are OK? You are basically saying tha British Dispensary, and Schering (organon is now part of schering)..everything else is a UG lab-which is bad, and in the past you have taken a "position" that certain ug labs, are actually "real companys" because they produced some sham document.. why is your "position" suddenly shifting so extreme?

and really if there is a very tiny small trace of "virus, tbacco smoke, metal" according to the spectrometer test you may have performed..its just seems ridiculous "oh no I'm injecting tobacco smoke.." and the solvents in the oils themselves should kills bacterias or viruses.. and if it's an oral steroid then whatever tiny amounts of these "proteins" is obviously less than what the average person eats, like when sime micro particles of tobacco smoke land on his plate--what is the point? and these tests themselves are they really that accurate? when it comes to such very minute amounts of these impurities.. is there a real health risk or danger..lets say you cut yourself-a little bit of cigar smoke particles lands on the wound..
does an injection from organon-those pakistani ones..really not have even a tiny amount(like a few molecules) of some type of an impurity?

Also I think most ugls (the decent ones anyways) are getting their raws from pharmaceutical producers, not unlicensed chemical companies.. why should someone in eastern europe or Thailand get their raws from a bad company when the pharmaceutical producers will sell to them just as easily? The reason the 'raw deal' american ugls were getting it from those other companys is that the pharmaceutical ones will not ship to the US, smuggling it in as mislabled materials.. if ugl is in a developing country they're not worried about USDEA or cops intercepting the goods and coming back at them.

[S.B.C]

damn, I clicked on this thread hoping it was a job offer for someone to write for BOS

[Milo]

Omni, I am not sure why you are protesting so much. It just seems like you have some sort of agenda here or axe to grind. What William says concerning production of materials is undisputable. An important point he made is that he concedes "that there are many underground products of acceptable (safe) purity". The key question, which even you yourself point out, for each individual user to answer from him/her self is what constitutes an acceptable level of purity.

You say you "think most ugls (the decent ones anyways) are getting their raws from pharmaceutical producers, not unlicensed chemical companies" and you ask "why should someone in eastern europe or Thailand get their raws from a bad company when the pharmaceutical producers will sell to them just as easily?" Can you back up either of those statements? If so, please do.

[Rockice]

Bill this is EXACTLY why I wish you weren't spending so much time and energy testing UG labs. I would much rather have ICN's, Schering Testos, Omnas, Organon Deca, British Dispensary, etc. tested. I mean are we really going to be surprised at what you find with most of these UG labs?

Also, this is exactly why I laugh when guys say it's better to just homebrew. I mean think about it. US PHARMA companies have gotten tainted HEPARIN from China!!!!!!!!!!! Why would anyone think black market steroid powders are safe?

My next question is though Bill what do you think of most HG brands like ICN, Schering, Norma, Organon, Cidoteston, Tamin Caspian, Abruhain etc? I think BOS should have taken the money they spent on UG labs and spent it on regular month tests of HG gear. Most of us already know UG gear is shit and produced under shady circumstances.

Anyways, thanks for your post!

P.S. I do think you lose a little credibility concerning the fact that you praised Balkan when they first came out. A GMP license from Moldova means no more than a UG lab in most of our opinions.

[omni]

My axe to grind is that WL is someone who has only spent the last 20 years publishing books full of steroids, the vast majority of them being from UG labs, and endorseing products from UG labs..now he posts-look at what he posted in bold:
(people)SHOULD NOT KNOWINGLY USE UNDERGROUND ANABOLIC STEROIDS
that seems like a pretty extreme statement, he's not saying that there are good ones and bad ones..he's saying it's all bad..and i'm asking: other than Schering and British Dispensary- name some of these "real companies" that exist-thats what i'm asking... then we'll take a closer look to see if they are real

asking me to "back up" that chinese pharmaceutical producers will supply uglabs is ridiculous..what do you want me to do-call them and record the conversation so we can post it here, and start naming names and compnays-oh yea that would be real good for bbing community.. when you have not "backed up" that they won't.. I know that they do, ok.. They make this stuff, they wanna sell it and most of the customers are uglabs-thats it, it's China.. they might vett a little bit, but with the olympics in the rearview mirror-someone who wants to get a decent quantity of raws can get it from these companies.

..and "What William says .... is undisputable."
he's not right all the time and no one can be 100% certain in this grey industry .


.......

ok great, well you names a few of these real companys..Tamin Caspian, Abruhain .. umm these companies are in IRAN, correct?..can we really trust that the Quality Control and regulation bureus in a country like IRAN is up to snuff? I mean what if their making this stuff in the same drum where they enrich all that uranium..we just don't know.. ok no more uglab stuff for me i wanna get all my juice from a company that has passed the strict regulation measures enforced by the government of Iran.